What constitutes an improvement is a matter of taste and opinion regardless of how cutting edge the methods used to update it are. Some people like varying levels of improvement some just from a resolution increase with no filtering up to a full high res pack and 3D models... and they are all entitled to their opinion and there's room to cater to the spectrum. Some people consider 3D models to be a downgrade especially when they aren't done well or don't have a level of detail to at least match the look of the sprites they are replacing. Up until recently that has been the case.
Hell, I myself used to not run high res packs at all because for the longest time no one was coming out with anything that did any justice to the originals. The current model packs for Doomsday fall under that category I'm sorry to say.... and I've actually seen some good looking HD sprites such as the work Freeverse did for Marathon 2 which looks fantastic. So I see value in either method.... and again one doesn't have to take away from the other. I currently run the latest polymer pack for eDuke32 which I consider the best HRP out there right now but I see quite a few people at Duke4 and other places who hate the very thought of it and think the models are a downgrade visually from the sprites they replace.
The kingennio pack is a big upgrade to the main jdrp pack, even though most of the monster models weren't touched. Most of the non-monster models have higher res and poly count and look great with nicer effects in comparison to the older jdrp pack (skull keys in kingennio pack look much better). The archvile in the jdrp is poor in detail and needs updated someday (I would consider that model a priority before other monster models), but looks decent from a distance. Also Tea Monster's models are good. I do notice that when comparing sprites to models, the models have much better framerate and also can be viewed from all angles. Also damage stages and are no doubt affected by lighting. Another advantage is the projectiles and blood looks better in modelled format and have effects and emit light while the sprites don't have any real effects(compare the nice effect of the modelled imp fireball to the sprite or the Hell Knight energy projectile to its corrosponding sprite). If the new sprites come out, I will try them too. Of course sooner or later, sprites will no longer be used in gaming.
I did grow up during the NES and SNES era, and at first, when the N64 came out, I worried about trying a true 3D game (Mario 64) because I thought it would ruin the gameplay of side scrollers. Of course that game used sprites as well as models, but I didn't understand the concept back then. First 3D game I played was Star Fox for the SNES probably.
Oculus Rift stuff? I would love to play the old games in VR, especially Hexen. Is that in the works? I would be very tempted to contribute with some cash for such support assuming that some better models could be made.
I think it is only a matter of time before new models and/or sprites are released. I'm guessing this will occur after the engine code has been updated so much that it is no longer a priority (maybe another year?) Then the focus may shift to more modelling and better textures. But I do know that the code needs to be upgraded sufficiently before normal maps are implemented, which is supposedly in the works. Perhaps the majority of model work is being put off until normals can be achieved since that would avoid having to remake the new model or at least the textures for it. Not sure when that roadmap item will be implemented though. By now, the Deng team must be getting close to inclunding normal map support. Just an assumption since the code has progressed a lot since the team changed things to allow for a regular update to the code and multiple stable releases already.
You can fudge it a bit, but normal maps will require new models. The only one where I don't see this being an issue is the Pinky, which was created from the start as a next-gen item. The Caco started out as that, but kind of lost his way along the road to getting finished.
There is one pack that was created for a member of the forum. It was never released though. Normal maps exist for a few of the monsters.
The main thing I personally don't like about the idea of hi-res sprites is how they look. Since in the olden days, there was no choice, good sprites were awesome, and the usage of the fat pixels had both its charm with the skills implemented, and left much to the imagination. Hence, you have various interpretations of what is already presented. The same can be said with art from real objects, of course.
However, to make hi-res sprites usually entails a new interpretation, which many don't like, or an attempt at a replica which is itself an interpretation, since the details really aren't there.
What I hate is that all-too-often it either looks like a realistic picture or a comic book style. If anyone has played it, do you see what I mean about Super Street Fighter 2 HD Remix? It's not that the drawings were in and of themselves that bad, but they were in a Korean comic style. Some people playing that game still use the original, terrible graphics because of how the newer sprites don't have the same "feel". I myself hate the art style, as it reminds me of animé which, in my mind (prepares to be killed) is very overdone and has become stale and uninspired.
Because of this, I am definitely not against creative and skilled interpretations, but I think that, like many creative artistic animations, they should probably have a common thematic representation in a personal and pleasing way. Some like to emphasize exaggerated actions, such as for instance an imp about falling forward while hurling a fireball, whereas others like the idea of ominous-looking monstrosities!
From what I have seen of the original models, some monsters looked worse with the details in the models they were derived from, such as the spider mastermind and the arch-vile --- the latter especially. The low resolution/anti-aliasing in it and for instance the baron of hell make their faces look more intimidating, whereas for instance the arch-vile looks a little more comical in the natural state. As such, naturally a cartoon-like approach might seem natural to compensate for the dimensions that the lack of details provide, but that's not necessary.
I guess the conclusion of my incessant ramblings is that there's nothing inherently wrong with hi-res enhancements, so long as they're done right, which is either contestable or difficult-to-come-by. For instance, most everyone liked NiuHaka's updated monster models, yet not all of them were 100% faithful to the originals. When I did the gargoyle for Heretic, I realized that it didn't look exactly like the gargoyle, and DaniJ picked up on that and was able to appreciate the alteration, the "gremlin-like" appearance. This I derived from the cuteness of the noises they made, which reminded me of gremlins. I don't imagine brute beasts making the noises they do when they see you and are attacked!
As such, I can't imagine the barons/knights in Doom being very grotesque or insane-looking up-close, but more like natural beasts with the mythical twist to them. Taking all of the details from the id Software concept art drawings literally might actually be detrimental in such a case.
On that note, I could also imagine the cyberdemon having a more hulking air to him, based on the sounds effects representing him, and the appearance already offered. For this reason, I thought that the Doom 64 rendition was bad, yet I was actually pleased with the pinky demon rendition for the reasons I would've otherwise appreciated the cyberdemon in that game. As such, I thought that the sound effects and visuals matched for the knights and barons, except that although animals (monsters are not) probably shouldn't be considered inherently jacked, they seemed slightly less intimidating than they could have been.
In vanilla Doom, the pain elemental's sounds went along with its appearance, and it seemed alien. Come to think of it, so did the arch-vile, and so they probably had such a theme running in their minds.
Doom 64 doesn't seem to have followed along the lines exactly with the boss creature, except only that it appears to be an "alien" in that it looks half-ripped-off from Giger/Ridley Scott alien, and half from the aliens from the SNES title Time Slip. It doesn't follow the theme of the other "aliens" (clasically-demon they are) very much at all. Now that I think about it, I guess the 1986 "Invaders from Mars" style spider mastermind really doesn't, either. Oh well...
3D models, I think, also offer their ability for creativity in different ways, and can be used creatively to offer the same creative art style in some cases if it's implemented properly. For instance, the newer Elvenwand FX aren't primarily particles, although some are sprite particles. I tried to get them to remain faithful to the effects without being a direct copy. A direct copy with more detail would look incredibly bad, as I think would be how it has been proven in times past with direct-translation-attempts with the Doom models, such as the marines and zombies with extra large heads. The sprites had this going on for their own purposes, but I personally don't think it should be retained just for the sake of scale, as it's unnatural, the inconsistencies less forgivable in such a high-quality medium!
The Sitters version of the modeled Arch Vile and spider Mastermind, which I'm using now, are somewhat better. Better models will no doubt be made once the code is improved enough freeing more of the coders' time. compared o the original pack, There are also much better 'static' models with Kingennio's pack and 2 of Tea monster's models (caco and Pinky). I mix max the ones I like into what I'm playing now. A combination of models from the 'Doomsday best hi-def models.rar' Some of Sitter's weapons and monsters, and the 2 Tea Monster models. When combined, all original models are renewed. I keep some old monster models active since I like 'some' of them more than the Sitter's with some better death animations than the Sitter's (baron of hell original model has better death animation and extra green blood effect, but Sitter's version has better texture). The Sitter's Revenant is much better than original model and the lost soul destruction effect is better than original model.
It is part of progress. Many people fear progress, just like many no doubt first feared cars, some still fear the internet, and half of people currently fear robots (not realizing the progress has the potential to free humans from work if the 'system' is changed since they cannot think beyond the confines of our current system). I hope you don't fear progress, but I do agree the models could be better.
You can embrace the progress or be left behind and choose to stick with the very old (boring and ugly in my opinion) low detailed 1993-1994 original sprites. I prefer nothing but models, but hi-def sprites are much better (to most of us, I'm sure) than the original low-def sprites.
I love the realistic look, preferring that they also have damage stages and 'close' to the original death animations (realistic versions of the same death animations would be neat). They should make a much more realistic hell knight with realistic normal-mapped hi-poly organs on the ground (current original model has low poly blurry organs while Sitter's doesn't show the organs).
As for sound, I'm using the Sambo's sound pack, which are much better quality sounds than the originals and might be more fitting for the models.
Now this is something I haven't looked into for a long time.
What is the newest version of model format(s) that DE supports now days?
I'm thinking it was md2 back when, does DE support md3 now days? or possibly md5?
Or perhaps static ase or md5 mesh?
It's a brave, new world! We love these games for what ever reason but, Maybe a new slant can be just as enjoyable. I am not one to say it has to look like the original. I have an eye toward the emerging VR scene. I want to see things that are believable. I'm not concerned with real, only believable. You are all doing a fine job with what you are doing but I would ask that you expand your horizons, take full advantage of what Doomsday can do, even if you have to stray from the originals a bit. I know you all think I'm nutz but that's ok with me.
animations look quite bad though imo
you shouldnt just follow the original frames so exact....
those animations mightve looked ok for low-res sprites, but for HD-models the exact same animations just look bad
i suggest to NOT follow the original animation-frames so exact,
but just look at making the animations look good
And that is one reason why models are best. Of course the detail of the imp here is a heck of a lot better than that music. even the original e1m1 music is better than that. Maybe use the metal music pack. but I often turn off music when I play Doom.
I don't really like the look of your higher resolution sprites myself. But it might also be because they are the only things in the world done in that art style (consistency is important).
The animation of your higher resolution sprites reveals that if they are based off the original sprites animation, that the original sprites animation was far too minimal to be realistic (i.e the higher resolution of your sprites reveals how little the arms and legs of the original move) and relied on the pixels being giant.
I agree with Splitterface and Vermil that you should animate an attack animation that looks good - as a 3D model. Don't copy the sprite too much. What works in 2d sprites doesn't necessarily translate well to 3d model animation.
In regards to what vermil said, I'd say that, if you were going to do the entire pack, then it would be good for consistency. If I weren't such a 3D guy myself, I would probably like something like that. I think it's kind of cool.
In this test I don't have attack frames. There are some inconsistencies between "spawn" and "see" frames, and scale is not perfect, just ignore that, this is only test.
I agree with Splitterface and Vermil that you should animate an attack animation that looks good - as a 3D model. Don't copy the sprite too much. What works in 2d sprites doesn't necessarily translate well to 3d model animation.
If you are talking 3D models, you probably agree with me too.
...I looked at that video. It just looks like it should be a model. Somehow a super realistic sprite looks funny since it isn't a model. If you want it to be a sprite, you got to add far more frames than that.
In this test I don't have attack frames. There are some inconsistencies between "spawn" and "see" frames, and scale is not perfect, just ignore that, this is only test.
I keep forgetting that they are sprites! The skin on the new tweaked version looks much better.
I think that if you adjusted the leg position on the walk cycle, you would probably loose the 'moonwalk'.
Here is that link that KuriKai posted if you missed it. http://www.angryanimator.com/word/2010/ ... alk-cycle/
To be frank, the high res sprites look strange on the frame cycle of the sprites. As the sprites were blocky and indistinct, they sort of contributed to a kind of motion blur in your mind so you didn't notice the low res movement so much with the low res sprite. Now that you've filled in all the details, the jerkiness of the original animation (sorry id!) really becomes apparent.
One thing you could try to do in your animation software is to enable motion blur. I've never tried this so I don't know if this is going to work or not. If you enable motion blur, you will blur the the parts of the model that are moving. They do this in film animation to stop the jerkiness you can get (AKA the 'Harryhausen effect').
Yes, I watched several tutorials about walk cycle. Today I'm make new animation. There is 5 frames for 5 angles of "A_Look" and 12 (!) frames for every angle of walk animation (totally 85 frames of animation), but this still look too shaky:
In your video, when they are at rest before attacking, their knees are bent more. When fired upon they seem to straighten up a bit and I think that is part of the problem. They don't look like they have a natural stride. They need to have a forward body thrust during parts of the animation to show some effort toward momentum (does that make sense?). Also the knees and ankles being in the exact same angle in every frame makes them look locked and without flex. I know that in truth they are locked but each frame could have a slightly different bend to the knee and ankle to make them appear to be flexing.
The idle animation needs a rethink, anatomically speaking. When a bipedal breathes deeply, the spine straightens, which in turn causes the "shrug like" appearance due to the weight of the arms. Presently this animation looks quite wrong, with the chest seemingly having the ability to move independently from the rest of the creature's body.
Comments
Hell, I myself used to not run high res packs at all because for the longest time no one was coming out with anything that did any justice to the originals. The current model packs for Doomsday fall under that category I'm sorry to say.... and I've actually seen some good looking HD sprites such as the work Freeverse did for Marathon 2 which looks fantastic. So I see value in either method.... and again one doesn't have to take away from the other. I currently run the latest polymer pack for eDuke32 which I consider the best HRP out there right now but I see quite a few people at Duke4 and other places who hate the very thought of it and think the models are a downgrade visually from the sprites they replace.
I did grow up during the NES and SNES era, and at first, when the N64 came out, I worried about trying a true 3D game (Mario 64) because I thought it would ruin the gameplay of side scrollers. Of course that game used sprites as well as models, but I didn't understand the concept back then. First 3D game I played was Star Fox for the SNES probably.
There is one pack that was created for a member of the forum. It was never released though. Normal maps exist for a few of the monsters.
However, to make hi-res sprites usually entails a new interpretation, which many don't like, or an attempt at a replica which is itself an interpretation, since the details really aren't there.
What I hate is that all-too-often it either looks like a realistic picture or a comic book style. If anyone has played it, do you see what I mean about Super Street Fighter 2 HD Remix? It's not that the drawings were in and of themselves that bad, but they were in a Korean comic style. Some people playing that game still use the original, terrible graphics because of how the newer sprites don't have the same "feel". I myself hate the art style, as it reminds me of animé which, in my mind (prepares to be killed) is very overdone and has become stale and uninspired.
Because of this, I am definitely not against creative and skilled interpretations, but I think that, like many creative artistic animations, they should probably have a common thematic representation in a personal and pleasing way. Some like to emphasize exaggerated actions, such as for instance an imp about falling forward while hurling a fireball, whereas others like the idea of ominous-looking monstrosities!
From what I have seen of the original models, some monsters looked worse with the details in the models they were derived from, such as the spider mastermind and the arch-vile --- the latter especially. The low resolution/anti-aliasing in it and for instance the baron of hell make their faces look more intimidating, whereas for instance the arch-vile looks a little more comical in the natural state. As such, naturally a cartoon-like approach might seem natural to compensate for the dimensions that the lack of details provide, but that's not necessary.
I guess the conclusion of my incessant ramblings is that there's nothing inherently wrong with hi-res enhancements, so long as they're done right, which is either contestable or difficult-to-come-by. For instance, most everyone liked NiuHaka's updated monster models, yet not all of them were 100% faithful to the originals. When I did the gargoyle for Heretic, I realized that it didn't look exactly like the gargoyle, and DaniJ picked up on that and was able to appreciate the alteration, the "gremlin-like" appearance. This I derived from the cuteness of the noises they made, which reminded me of gremlins. I don't imagine brute beasts making the noises they do when they see you and are attacked!
As such, I can't imagine the barons/knights in Doom being very grotesque or insane-looking up-close, but more like natural beasts with the mythical twist to them. Taking all of the details from the id Software concept art drawings literally might actually be detrimental in such a case.
On that note, I could also imagine the cyberdemon having a more hulking air to him, based on the sounds effects representing him, and the appearance already offered. For this reason, I thought that the Doom 64 rendition was bad, yet I was actually pleased with the pinky demon rendition for the reasons I would've otherwise appreciated the cyberdemon in that game. As such, I thought that the sound effects and visuals matched for the knights and barons, except that although animals (monsters are not) probably shouldn't be considered inherently jacked, they seemed slightly less intimidating than they could have been.
In vanilla Doom, the pain elemental's sounds went along with its appearance, and it seemed alien. Come to think of it, so did the arch-vile, and so they probably had such a theme running in their minds.
Doom 64 doesn't seem to have followed along the lines exactly with the boss creature, except only that it appears to be an "alien" in that it looks half-ripped-off from Giger/Ridley Scott alien, and half from the aliens from the SNES title Time Slip. It doesn't follow the theme of the other "aliens" (clasically-demon they are) very much at all. Now that I think about it, I guess the 1986 "Invaders from Mars" style spider mastermind really doesn't, either. Oh well...
3D models, I think, also offer their ability for creativity in different ways, and can be used creatively to offer the same creative art style in some cases if it's implemented properly. For instance, the newer Elvenwand FX aren't primarily particles, although some are sprite particles. I tried to get them to remain faithful to the effects without being a direct copy. A direct copy with more detail would look incredibly bad, as I think would be how it has been proven in times past with direct-translation-attempts with the Doom models, such as the marines and zombies with extra large heads. The sprites had this going on for their own purposes, but I personally don't think it should be retained just for the sake of scale, as it's unnatural, the inconsistencies less forgivable in such a high-quality medium!
My two cents, I guess...
It is part of progress. Many people fear progress, just like many no doubt first feared cars, some still fear the internet, and half of people currently fear robots (not realizing the progress has the potential to free humans from work if the 'system' is changed since they cannot think beyond the confines of our current system). I hope you don't fear progress, but I do agree the models could be better.
You can embrace the progress or be left behind and choose to stick with the very old (boring and ugly in my opinion) low detailed 1993-1994 original sprites. I prefer nothing but models, but hi-def sprites are much better (to most of us, I'm sure) than the original low-def sprites.
I love the realistic look, preferring that they also have damage stages and 'close' to the original death animations (realistic versions of the same death animations would be neat). They should make a much more realistic hell knight with realistic normal-mapped hi-poly organs on the ground (current original model has low poly blurry organs while Sitter's doesn't show the organs).
As for sound, I'm using the Sambo's sound pack, which are much better quality sounds than the originals and might be more fitting for the models.
Now this is something I haven't looked into for a long time.
What is the newest version of model format(s) that DE supports now days?
I'm thinking it was md2 back when, does DE support md3 now days? or possibly md5?
Or perhaps static ase or md5 mesh?
Thanks
http://imgur.com/ArBXfwv
http://imgur.com/4RLB8jf
http://imgur.com/2YNMTBa
http://imgur.com/DRYtbfb
http://imgur.com/wXAXZWE
http://imgur.com/kRi4MaA
http://imgur.com/Tn9xZZg
http://imgur.com/SK9MGGX
http://imgur.com/Cto7TQY
http://imgur.com/9Z6P5Ab
http://imgur.com/LQHywkS
http://imgur.com/TMeTkqE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-srHOBu ... e=youtu.be
those actually looks neat
animations look quite bad though imo
you shouldnt just follow the original frames so exact....
those animations mightve looked ok for low-res sprites, but for HD-models the exact same animations just look bad
i suggest to NOT follow the original animation-frames so exact,
but just look at making the animations look good
The animation of your higher resolution sprites reveals that if they are based off the original sprites animation, that the original sprites animation was far too minimal to be realistic (i.e the higher resolution of your sprites reveals how little the arms and legs of the original move) and relied on the pixels being giant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKdul3u ... e=youtu.be
In this test I don't have attack frames. There are some inconsistencies between "spawn" and "see" frames, and scale is not perfect, just ignore that, this is only test.
And I'm upgrade his skin a little:
http://imgur.com/eoQhu01
http://imgur.com/SthnUZH
...I looked at that video. It just looks like it should be a model. Somehow a super realistic sprite looks funny since it isn't a model. If you want it to be a sprite, you got to add far more frames than that.
Did you take a look at that website i linked before about animation?
I think that if you adjusted the leg position on the walk cycle, you would probably loose the 'moonwalk'.
Here is that link that KuriKai posted if you missed it. http://www.angryanimator.com/word/2010/ ... alk-cycle/
To be frank, the high res sprites look strange on the frame cycle of the sprites. As the sprites were blocky and indistinct, they sort of contributed to a kind of motion blur in your mind so you didn't notice the low res movement so much with the low res sprite. Now that you've filled in all the details, the jerkiness of the original animation (sorry id!) really becomes apparent.
One thing you could try to do in your animation software is to enable motion blur. I've never tried this so I don't know if this is going to work or not. If you enable motion blur, you will blur the the parts of the model that are moving. They do this in film animation to stop the jerkiness you can get (AKA the 'Harryhausen effect').
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQit7cSR-vI