Modelling for Newbies....
Found the following site:
http://www.quake2.com/modeling/
Seems good. I know little about modelling, but i'm interested to get into it. Just wondering if any experts in the forums have anything of note from the above site
Also, to the devs, whats the estimated timespan for MD3 models do you think? I read about the whole vertex optimized DMD format and all that and also read the blog... I think I know enough about modelling to realize that full MD3 support would be AWESOME.
EDIT: Links for Modelling-related resources-
MilkShape 3D: http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch (Commercial US$35, free trial available, seems powerful)
Blender: http://www.blender.org/ (Open Source, leading-edge modelling suite for the world of free-as-in-speech, but apparently has problems when exporting to the older MD2 format)
EDIT: KuriKai: blender 2.4.9a has no problems exporting into the md2 format
Misfit Model 3D (MM3D): http://www.misfitcode.com/misfitmodel3d/ (Open Source, relatively immature but very fast and worth a look. (Supports PNG-textured MD2's that Doomsday uses)
Quake 2 Modeler version 0.9: http://abbs.jbserver.com/downloads/editing/q2mdlr90.zip (Freeware) (Does NOT support the PNG-textured MD2's that Doomsday can use)
Quake 2 Modeler version 0.91: http://abbs.jbserver.com/downloads/editing/q2mdlr91.zip (Freeware) (Does NOT support the PNG-textured MD2's that Doomsday can use)
Npherno's Skin Tool version 0.9 beta 3: http://www.filefront.com/Nphernos+skin+ ... einfo.html (Freeware)
http://www.quake2.com/modeling/
Seems good. I know little about modelling, but i'm interested to get into it. Just wondering if any experts in the forums have anything of note from the above site
Also, to the devs, whats the estimated timespan for MD3 models do you think? I read about the whole vertex optimized DMD format and all that and also read the blog... I think I know enough about modelling to realize that full MD3 support would be AWESOME.
EDIT: Links for Modelling-related resources-
MilkShape 3D: http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch (Commercial US$35, free trial available, seems powerful)
Blender: http://www.blender.org/ (Open Source, leading-edge modelling suite for the world of free-as-in-speech, but apparently has problems when exporting to the older MD2 format)
EDIT: KuriKai: blender 2.4.9a has no problems exporting into the md2 format
Misfit Model 3D (MM3D): http://www.misfitcode.com/misfitmodel3d/ (Open Source, relatively immature but very fast and worth a look. (Supports PNG-textured MD2's that Doomsday uses)
Quake 2 Modeler version 0.9: http://abbs.jbserver.com/downloads/editing/q2mdlr90.zip (Freeware) (Does NOT support the PNG-textured MD2's that Doomsday can use)
Quake 2 Modeler version 0.91: http://abbs.jbserver.com/downloads/editing/q2mdlr91.zip (Freeware) (Does NOT support the PNG-textured MD2's that Doomsday can use)
Npherno's Skin Tool version 0.9 beta 3: http://www.filefront.com/Nphernos+skin+ ... einfo.html (Freeware)
Comments
1) Load the associated Texture/Skin automatically when opening an MD2 model (need to browse manually, quite annoying)
2) One that supports PNG textures, or PCX textures greater than 256 colors
If anyone knows of a a good viewer that can do that, let me know.
I'd recommend first-off that you use Blender for modelling, since it has more than all of the features of the older programs on the site you've found, and plus since you'd most likely be using bone animation, you can save the original file and re-animate later on if needbe. Here goes...
OK! I found an easy (but step-filled) method that worked for me on exporting the animated models as MD2s:
I'm using Blender 2.46, and so I'm not sure if anyone tried md2 or md3 export with this, but I have trouble because it doesn't want to export animations, even though it says it will. I've used vertex keys and bone animation, along with shapekeys... None of them have worked, and in the case of vertex keys, it wipes them out when converting, and in the case of bones, it screws the model. I even tested it with a simple, extruded box model with MINIMAL requirements.
Blender can be found (and is like THE best free modelling software I've seen) at http://www.blender.org/
To learn either use the manual on that site, on wiki.blender.org, or go here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3Dvf_Noob_to_Pro
That last one makes it very easy to get started.
KuriKai sent me the link to this MD3 exporter:
EDIT: Fixed this link
http://xreal.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc ... l/blender/
You'll need to stick these in your .blender/scripts folder:
md3.py
md3_export.py
md3_import.py
q_math.py
q_shared.py
Then, I found a linux-developed modeller under the GNU public license called Misfit Model 3D. The developer version 1.3.7 has some new import/export filetypes, including .md3!
EDIT: Fixed this link
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfile ... _id=610625
So if you're on Linux, this is good for you too!
Thankfully, the import/export did not seem to be unstable, as it worked on the first try!
I was able to export-import-export as follows with NO problems:
blender>md3>misfit model3d>md2 and then into Quake 2 Modeller to see if it checked out, and it was fine.
You know, it's funny - even before I joined these forums, and I have never really done 3D Modelling before, but I already have working and ready-to-go installs of both the latest Blender and MM3D the same two programs you referenced :crazy:
Blender is definately a nice program, but It's a little overkill for a model viewer. However it's definately the best Open-Source modelling tool there is, i've seen some of the work done in it and it's amazing.
But MM3D is a great little Model Viewer - it loads very fast and I have it associated with my MD2 models. It works fine on my Windows machine, I am going to build the latest dev build with MinGW soon. I noticed though that Plugin support is currently not present on Windows, and that's a real shame for the MD2 plugin that does fancy triangle optimizing.
I'm curious though... why are you talking about MD3 scripts and stuff? Or do the MD3 scripts for Blender have backwards compatibility with MD2 aswell? iD Tech 3 engine models are not supported in Doomsday sadly (yet) so I hope that doesn't create over-complex or otherwise unsupported/non-standard/inefficient models :?
EDIT: Not a major issue as I already have them, but I noticed your last two links are buggered - the ... are literally in the URL hyperlink :shock: I wonder how that happened?
EDIT2: [Rant]I've been browsing the hires texture pack out of interest, and you know what I thought...? If Doomsday supported Meshed Textures (i.e. 3D walls, stuff sticking out as if they were 'real' bricks, animated wire sparks or blood dripping, etc)... that'd be epic enough to propel Doomsday to a major 2.0 :yay: If the engine supported it, it'd be hell easy to convert some of the existing textures to meshes with depth-map capabilities of Photoshop CS4...
Well, it was a follow-up to a post where there was a problem with MD2 export for Blender on the build that I was using. The best way I found was to export to MD3, then go to MD2 from there. MM3D takes care of the MD2 well enough so that it doesn't have any problems once it's MD2-exported.
Fixed now, and I couldn't have done it without you!
Well you know, I think there was something along those lines going on. If nothing else, perhaps plugins for the new 2.0 could be written to allow for displacement-mapped textures or something. The idea I get from the whole setup with how it's going to be in 2.0 is that the floor will be open for customized shaders/GLSL plugins?(anyone FEEL FREE TO CORRECT/REDIRECT ME - it's just the impression I got) You could just make particle definitions for the sparks and dripping blood, except you can't get it automatically generated at certain texture points I think!
May i suggest OBJ, from Wavefront Technologies, its seems to be a very supported format.
But i'm not sure how to attach an skeleton animation to it, if thats even possible.
But it defently support specular mapping, witch is one of the things i have missed mostly
Oh Psychikon... *epic romance music*
We could actually do it now I realized, although quite inelligantly. Doomsday apparently supports using models as Things right, so you could do some dodgy map placement to "stick" a model against a wall :P I'f I get experienced enough at modding before Doomsday drastically updates, i'll probably give it a go :evil:
Yeah I just looked that up, it's an open format just like MD3 is now (I believe so anyway as Quake 3 is open source right?) but OBJ is probably more advanced... I dunno of course, just pondering :P I've seen that most of the freeware/opensource modelling tools support OBJ's though, but a few still dont support MD3. But I guess in the end, it's a matter of how easy it is for the Dev's to implement it, and how fast it'll be, and what they'd prefer to bugfix for :party:
Well its seems OBJ is the standar use also for open-source modelling and payware
I think there are many benefit for OBJ rather than MD3, but still the skeleton animation concern me, since i only have use mesh files, for transporting from application to application.
No idea what the Wikipedia snippet talks about (i'm not too experienced) but why is that no place for us? The MD2 is 3D geometry alone aswell I thought, the textures are applied via an external file... obviously i'm missing something.
In regards to implementing a new model format, I might direct the readers to the Roadmap page of the Wiki. The new Model Format is scheduled for a post 2.0 feature (that is, after 1.9.x Beta hits 2.0 Final). It would require the new Rendering subsystem as the current architecture is based on the very first code written for the original JHexen.
From http://dengine.net/dew/index.php?title= ... _subsystem ...
- It will need to be rewritten from scratch to work with the new libdeng2;
- Current rendering engine isn't even OpenGL 2.0 so anything more complex than MD2 will be a massive f*ck around (this I know definately);
Also, the lighting on MD3 models would really suck with the current engine.
I think my point here is that, hypothetically, if MD3 or OBJ or whatever better model support was inmplemented before the renderer re-write, it'd look and run like shit. If it'd even work at all. OpenGL 1.x is just too archaic to work with and it's unrealistic to code a feature thats around five years ahead of it's core tech.
Correct me if i'm wrong there, please feel free to. But I think the serious talk of new Model formats is best left of when Deng2 is finished and work on the new render engine goes into full swing :thumb:
EDIT: Personally, I think a BSP (or better) map format support would be much more exciting than a new model format :P
Getting back on topic, what program would you guys recommend that supports MD2 well, in addition to other possible-future formats? It'd be nice to practice and learn in a program and not have to completly change our software :P So far i'm gonna go with what was said; either Blender or MM3D. I'd like to know what other people think though
I personally use any application, but i do the final tweak whit Milkshape, and i think its a good tool for its purpose. and it whasnt very expensive
MD2s have frames with relative positions for the vertices in each one, whereas OBJs only have a single "frame". You would therefore have to have an entire .obj file for each frame, which would make extra UV waste data, extra waste texture data, etc. Also, it'd be more difficult to manage.
I wouldn't push the idea of using Blender if I didn't believe that it'd be best for anyone who isn't using a professional program, as I've seen it to be the most versatile free program, handling the most file types. It has scripting abilities to where, if you want to, you can write your own import/export scripts. I was only saying about MM3D because of the MD2 export bug in that release of Blender. I didn't want to backtrack to a previous (compatible) version, as it didn't have shapekeys (in the same way), which I was using in the model.
I was only suggesting about a modified version of the DMD format because I forgot that it almost definitely stores the vertices in the same way that MD2 does - in a matrix. So it'd be impossible to have them as floats, unless they were scaled proportionally within that matrix. Even if it did, I bet the engine reads them specifically as bytes or chars, so it wouldn't read it properly. If I understand that dev like I did previously, however, then there is a hint that it DOES read them in properly and the dmd2 format would only have to be as such so that md2tool could properly mess with it, but as long as everything is in order otherwise, you might not need a new format, just a tweaked one, compatible with the engine as it is. If it was possible, I would do it myself - it's just that I wanted to know if it WAS possible, that's all.
There were new map possibilities talked about I remember earlier on... DaniJ had posted a screenshot or two of a multiple-floor setup I think in the rocket launcher room on Doom2-Map01 if my memory serves me correctly. All of these things are on the way, but it's taking some time. I really like the idea of the bias lighting system and all of that. I was trying to mess around with the in-game editor a couple months back, and I thought that was neat too...
Anyone interested in going to the site should look for the more updated versions of the most useful files there. They are here:
Quake 2 Modeler version 0.9: http://abbs.jbserver.com/downloads/editing/q2mdlr90.zip
Quake 2 Modeler version 0.91: http://abbs.jbserver.com/downloads/editing/q2mdlr91.zip
Npherno's Skin Tool version 0.9 beta 3: http://www.filefront.com/Nphernos+skin+ ... einfo.html
I found that using Misfit Model 3D as a simple viewer is better though in my opinion. It still loads fast, and the Q2 Viewer wont load PNG textured md2 models (such as those from jDRP v1.1 alpha)
I probably should learn MM3D or something, because Q2M is kind of difficult to see what you're doing in. I would have just exported them separately to begin with, but it would recalculate the space for each .md2, and then there would be little seams in all the separate parts.
Is that the red Gargoyle in the Heretic Model Pack now? Nice work there! I havn't seen Heretic for a while, but I remember noticing the Heretic (and some Hexen) models were of a higher quality to the Doom effort (IMHO).
What makes MM3D different though is that it is still active in development, I asked about the Plugin system progress for Windows on the official forums. Q2M is pretty much dead I would guess. Psychikon, are you the one who referenced the Milkshape 3D software? If so, how would you compare it to MM3D (despite it being a commercial product)
Yeah, it's not the highest priority I would think in the worldwide modelling/gaming community as a whole. I mean, we're just a couple steps away from chucking it ourselves!
Yes, sir! Thank you... Back a long time ago when it was just Quake 2 Modeler I was familiar with, I did some of the crappier ones as well...
Well the bug in the .md2 export for Blender I guess was fixed in the last release, 'cause I was having a problem with 2.48, yet with 2.49a it's working perfectly for me. I also figured out (by finding a FRENCH .pdf file) how to write a framelist for export in case you didn't want the 198-frame Quake II default framelist.
Because of all of that, I stopped with any attempts to learn MM3D, but by all means work with that and Milkshape 3D if you like. It was monsieur BatteryMan who recommended Milkshape 3D.
EDIT: To make a framelist to export an MD2 by means of the NLA strip animations without having to use the default, you'll need to write a plain text file with the proper header, and then a name for the frames, followed by the number of frames of that "name" you'd like, all in successive order. Doing it this way only makes enough frames for the amount of frames that you have listed. For some reason, Blender wants to export an extra duplicate frame at the beginning. If it happens to you, just add a junk line with "1" after, as follows in the following template:
The first line is the header, the second line makes 1 frame called "DeleteMe_1". It numbers the frames according to the number it makes. The third line will name the following frames "Cheer_1" through "Cheer_12". The fourth continues to name the next five ones "Buttkick_1" through "Buttkick_5". The last one is a single "whatever_1" frame. Using a zero seems to cause an error whenever I've tried it.
Get on it, son!
If it'll be too much work though, don't stress about it
Said DMD Importer/Exporter, if created, can always be updated as the DMD format evolves. Would you maintain it though? Creating this might actually help the evolution/improvement of the DMD format since it would no longer be restricted by the MD2 format it's based on.
EDIT: I never knew Blender had it's own Game Engine :-O
Yeah, that's what I mean. See, think about it - if there were an actual in/out filter for Blender, branched off the MD2 one for instance, that's one step closer to a gradual improvement of the Doomsday model format - it's effectively isolating a barrier by moving closer towards eliminating the MD2 base. If a new feature is introduced in the Doomsday engine that affects or adds onto the modelling system, the Blender plugin could be updated to utilize it.
I understand that the actual code might not be as forgiving, but in the broad and literal sense it sounds like a good sort of step to take.
3d animation tools:
Character fx 1.3.4 can export in md2 format.
Pacemaker 1.3.4d can use physic ragdoll.
3d modelling tools:
KHED 1.01 like milkshape 3d, the new version coming soon.
Marbleclay 6.1 rev258 like metasequoia 3d, you must send a mail to the author to grab a serial key and break the 1 000 limit polygons it's free.
See this page for explanation:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/escargot/MarbleCLAY/MCLInfoE.html
It's all
Then I've also wondered if the models in MD2 format should be centered to the origo? Like does that decrease the amount of wobblyness? Usually I've just had the feet at the 0 level...
You could insert an additional unnecessary vertex within the model to deliberately orient the coordinate space about some arbitrary origin, however, this would actually be counter-productive because although you now have your oriented local coordinate space you also loose precision because the regular space subdivision now has to cover a larger space. Carefully applied however, you can use this technique to minimize what is colloquially known as "vertex swimming" by ensuring that all frames in an animation use a "quantization grid" oriented about the same place in the model's local coordinate space.
We plan to look at much more modern model formats for a future release.