does it have to be SO OBSCURE/HArd to manage addons?

8/27

Hello,

I know this makes me sound like a cranky old geezer...which isn't terribly far from the truth...
but really, does it have to be SO OBSCURE/HArd to manage addons?

My perspective:

1. haven't played Doomsday in > 1-2 years; have a new computer, so I downloaded installed doomsday 2.0.3...
2. the fact that it goes in my (Windows 10 64-bit) 2.0.2 (yes point-2) folder is not why I write

3. I believe I have the same perspective as 99% of your users...I want to replay these games, but with the best mods/addons/maps/total conversions,etc...

4. I mean really, who would use Doomsday ONLY to play the same old vanilla games with no additions?

5. which brings me to....I've been struggling for 40 minutes, reading online info etc., and am STILL totally in-the-dark as to how to do what should be ,after all these iterations of Doomsday, the simplest no-brainer thing in the world.

6. Example:
Hexen

Here are the addons I wish to use:-
HUD_Mage_v1.2
jxccp_1_31.box
xarp_013.box
XARP-TexHQ_0_06

I have all 4 as zip files.

Should not there be an aspect of the interface that lets one do this?
I do not mean dos commands...I certainly don't mean altering .cfg files

I just mean simply playing these addons

Is not the ability to play with add-ons, in a simple manner, the basic minimum of any modern source port 'improvement'?

I've been playing Doomsday since BEFORE 1.8.6...and that was the last version with an incredibly simple interface to do so
Versions after 1.8.6 had snowberry...which was less intuitive, but at least it was easy enough to figure out, albeit more cumbersome than the earlier method


7. I seems now we have NONE of that?
Really?
Why??

Despite my longwinded blabbering, I think I am asking for a very basic thing as an end-user, am I not?
Can you or anyone tell me exactly how to add those exact 4 add-ons to Hexen simply?

And going forward, if there is no simple method why can't there be?

I thank you for listening, and to anyone who can help

respectfully

ericjmz

Comments

  • My two cents. As a previous game/character design professional and a current University student of Human Centered Digital Product Design, I'd have to say you give some good points. However, this is an unfinished "product" you are attempting to use. I like to think of it as a usable beta that is certainly not "user friendly" by modern standards.

    Apologies for attempting to reset your perspective a bit instead of actually attempting to help you but I think its just as valuable.

    I would perhaps suggest using a version lower than 2.0 unless the specific mods you are trying to run are made specifically for 2+.
  • Swallowing pride...with a few slices of humble pie...is ALWAYS good advice.
    Hey I'm married...I understand this intuitively...one does not live to survive their 34 anniversary (yesterday) without such.

    However, I am not 99% correct here
    I am 100% correct :-)

    Humility aside now...
    100% of people who play DOomsday WANT to play the games with a few bells and whistles...after all, how many times can one replay vanilla doom with NO additions?

    This is a stable build...not one of the multi-times weekly betas.

    Doomsday major builds have been multiple.

    There is just NO REASON WHATSOEVER to make using all the additions/mods/textures, boxes, paks Unusable to > 90% of users...am I missing any points here?

    That being said....

    All the modern add-on packs (like the ones I mentioned in my Hexen example...are MADE for the latest Doomsdays...>/= 2.0

    So I can't follow your advice even if I wanted to compromise. :-((
    I prostrate myself with ultimate humility.

    Can you or anyone PLEASE tell me how to play DOomsday ...in the simplest terms possible, with any modern addition?

    I gave a very discrete example.
    Hexen...with the 4 add-ons mentioned.

    What way can I actually play it with Doomsday...rather than just keep downloading Doomsday updates, with obscure visual mini-improvements that I can never use?

    I am serious here, really...

    thank you

    ericjmz
  • I designed and implemented the UI, so you've got the right person's attention.

    Please allow me to point to some existing instructions:
    I am happy to answer any further questions you might have.

    Also, if you have ideas about how to make UI easier I would love to hear them. As always, Doomsday remains a work in progress...
  • edited 2017 Aug 29
    Hey, @skyjake, BTW I think the UI naming convention is geared more towards the technical side and not the general user which might be what this guy is running up against.

    I personally think that changing the name from "packages" to "addons" or "mods" would make it a lot more user friendly. Even "addons/mods" would be more effective.

    While "packages" would tell a technical/developer person what it is, it wouldn't tell a general user anything.

    Edit: @skyjake I would actually love to compile some design ideas sometime if you are open to it.
  • edited 2017 Aug 30
    Hey @ericjmz,
    I'm supervising Hexen addons for the last 5 years, and I can help you to choose the right addons and load it.
    First of all, from your list

    HUD_Mage_v1.2
    jxccp_1_31.box
    xarp_013.box
    XARP-TexHQ_0_06

    you need only xarp_013.box
    It's the latest one and have all resources from other packages + new ones.
    As @skyjake mentioned, you need to unzip files somewhere. Easiest way to unzip it to Doomsday installation data folder (e.g. C:\Program Files\Doomsday 2.0.3\data), then you'll don't need to navigate to your addon folder from the game UI manually.
  • edited 2017 Aug 30
    Is there a location in the window users "c:/user/username" directory where it loads addons from? don't you need admin rights to put files in the "program files" dir?

    In linux it's /home/username/.doomsday/runtime
  • NiuHaka wrote: »
    Hey, @skyjake, BTW I think the UI naming convention is geared more towards the technical side and not the general user which might be what this guy is running up against. I personally think that changing the name from "packages" to "addons" or "mods" would make it a lot more user friendly. Even "addons/mods" would be more effective.
    I think you are right, and "Mods" is probably today the most commonly used word for these things. I'll make a note to update the UI strings with this in mind.

    So far my thinking has been along the lines of packages such as those handled by Linux/Unix package management systems, but that is definitely a rather technical concept. :smile:
    @skyjake I would actually love to compile some design ideas sometime if you are open to it.
    Absolutely. We have a subforum for any UI related discussions, please post there whenever you feel like it: http://talk.dengine.net/categories/user-interface
    KuriKai wrote: »
    Is there a location in the window users "c:/user/username" directory where it loads addons from? don't you need admin rights to put files in the "program files" dir?
    Yes, in general it is against Microsoft's recommended security practices to modify the contents of the Program Files folder manually. You can always put data files in the Doomsday runtime folder, which is "C:\Users\username\AppData\Local\Deng Team\Doomsday Engine\runtime". This is admittedly difficult to find, though, with AppData being a hidden folder and the path is quite lengthy, too.

    Some workarounds could be adding a button in-game that opens the runtime folder for you in Windows Explorer, or having Doomsday create a "Mods" folder for itself under the user home folder (although I generally dislike apps that litter the home folder with new subfolders).

  • 8/30

    First, thank you to all: sincerely THANK YOU
    I just got back from working 24 hours 'in-hospital', so I apologize for the delay in answering

    Second, to NiuHaka
    Yes...you understand EXACTLY what I am saying. :-)
    What you techie & programmer guys understand so well...we end/general users do NOT
    (obviously from my posting :-)

    Third...to SkyJake...

    Yes, I DO have ideas; and they're really good and REALLY simple; and best of all, you've done them in the past! :-)
    ...but let me first see if I can get the addon(s) actually working as instructed by you and others

    Now before I take your more complicated (to an end user, not a programmer like yourself,) veirdo describes what appears to be a 'one step' solution, so I will try that first...in fact have, albeit unsuccessfully, which brings me to...

    drumroll...

    lastly, veirdo

    So since I tried what you are saying literally, and I see no difference whatsoever as I start-up Hexen, I must be misunderstanding what you instruct.

    I am now trying 'xarp_013.box' only...as you explained

    You say 'unzip it to Doomsday installation data folder (e.g. C:\Program Files\Doomsday 2.0.3\data), then you'll don't need to navigate to your addon folder from the game UI manually. '

    ...I understand unzipping of course. :-)
    When one unzips xarp_013.box you get a single folder called 'xarp_013.box', which itself contains 2 interior folders and a gadzillion files

    So did you mean what you said literally, and the result will be the EXTERIOR folder called 'xarp_013.box' residing in your data folder...
    ...because if I do that and fire up Hexen via Doomsday nothing happens

    Or did you instead mean that one takes all the INTERIOR CONTENTS of the exterior folder
    called 'xarp_013.box' and have those 2 interior folders and gadzillion files reside inside the data folder...
    ...cause I tried that, fired up hexen via doomsday, and see no difference at all in Hexen
    ...and if you DID mean that, as an aside, did you mean for the 2 interior folders of 'xarp_013.box' called 'extra' and 'required' and have those sitting in the data folder..
    ..or did you also mean the INTERIOR FILE CONTENTS of said 2 folders should reside in the data folder?

    Lastly...regardless of which answers above, did you mean (although I don't think you said-instructed to) that there is ANOTHER crucial step (I haven't done) after performing the unzipping, rather than just firing-up Hexen via Doomsday to get this addon to work?

    I await

    and I thank you all again for your patience

    ericjmz
  • edited 2017 Sep 11
    ericjmz wrote:
    So did you mean what you said literally, and the result will be the EXTERIOR folder called 'xarp_013.box' residing in your data folder...
    Yes, I meant exactly what I said, so your folder structure should look like
    C:\Program Files\Doomsday 2.0.3\data\xarp_013.box\
    
    with a buncha folders and files inside.
    Guys said that you could also use Doomsday runtime folder inside your home directory.
    ericjmz wrote:
    ...because if I do that and fire up Hexen via Doomsday nothing happens
    I said you don't need to navigate to addon, I've not said you don't have to turn it on in Doomsday UI ;)
    You still need 4 more clicks to start addon
    doomsdayAddonStart.png


  • I DID it.
    yeah ME!
    Yeah YOu
    Yeah..MOSTLY you!

    I am one happy guy...ecstatic actually.
    It just looks sooooooooo beautiful :-))

    ericjmz
  • Heheh. Nice. Well done.
  • I couldn't agree more with your post. I simply gave up rather then fool around with this engine. Nothing made sense to me. There are other engine options so I took them.
    Thanks for your post. I hope the devs are still paying attention and didn't relax back into politician mode


    ericjmz wrote: »
    8/27

    Hello,

    I know this makes me sound like a cranky old geezer...which isn't terribly far from the truth...
    but really, does it have to be SO OBSCURE/HArd to manage addons?

    My perspective:

    1. haven't played Doomsday in > 1-2 years; have a new computer, so I downloaded installed doomsday 2.0.3...
    2. the fact that it goes in my (Windows 10 64-bit) 2.0.2 (yes point-2) folder is not why I write

    3. I believe I have the same perspective as 99% of your users...I want to replay these games, but with the best mods/addons/maps/total conversions,etc...

    4. I mean really, who would use Doomsday ONLY to play the same old vanilla games with no additions?

    5. which brings me to....I've been struggling for 40 minutes, reading online info etc., and am STILL totally in-the-dark as to how to do what should be ,after all these iterations of Doomsday, the simplest no-brainer thing in the world.

    6. Example:
    Hexen

    Here are the addons I wish to use:-
    HUD_Mage_v1.2
    jxccp_1_31.box
    xarp_013.box
    XARP-TexHQ_0_06

    I have all 4 as zip files.

    Should not there be an aspect of the interface that lets one do this?
    I do not mean dos commands...I certainly don't mean altering .cfg files

    I just mean simply playing these addons

    Is not the ability to play with add-ons, in a simple manner, the basic minimum of any modern source port 'improvement'?

    I've been playing Doomsday since BEFORE 1.8.6...and that was the last version with an incredibly simple interface to do so
    Versions after 1.8.6 had snowberry...which was less intuitive, but at least it was easy enough to figure out, albeit more cumbersome than the earlier method


    7. I seems now we have NONE of that?
    Really?
    Why??

    Despite my longwinded blabbering, I think I am asking for a very basic thing as an end-user, am I not?
    Can you or anyone tell me exactly how to add those exact 4 add-ons to Hexen simply?

    And going forward, if there is no simple method why can't there be?

    I thank you for listening, and to anyone who can help

    respectfully

    ericjmz

  • Jaeon wrote: »
    I couldn't agree more with your post. I simply gave up rather then fool around with this engine. Nothing made sense to me. There are other engine options so I took them.
    Thanks for your post. I hope the devs are still paying attention and didn't relax back into politician mode
    I have split the discussion of UI improvements to a different thread: http://talk.dengine.net/discussion/2486/making-the-ui-easier-add-on-management

    I would love to hear your feedback, too. The only way to make the UI better is for me and other devs to understand your point of view and what were your expectations coming in.
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